Mary Knox Miller:

You are listening to Speaking Human First, a podcast that explores the art and science of communicating world-changing ideas. I'm your host, Mary Knox Miller, and today I'm in conversation with Dr. Tina Opie and Dr. Beth Livingston.

Dr. Tina is an Associate Professor of management at Babson College, a well-regarded thought leader in the field of organizational behavior and a professional speaker. Dr. Beth is the Sheets Associate Professor of Industrial Relations at the University of Iowa. Together, they wrote the book, Shared Sisterhood: How to Take Collective Action for Racial and Gender Equity at Work.

Their vision is an equitable world, one where historically marginalized groups are on equal footing with power dominant groups, one where everyone does the necessary internal work while extending grace when mistakes are made and one where fear will no longer, "Masquerade as bombastic courage," says Dr. Tina.

How do we get there? Dr. Tina and Dr. Beth offer up this framework: Dig, Bridge, Advance.

First, dig. Why do you believe what you believe? Hold up a mirror and explore your assumptions around race, gender, and power. Every human carries biases. What are yours? Be honest.

Next, bridge. Connect with others. Take a risk and reach out to people who value equity like you do. But look, think, or believe differently. Show up with vulnerability, empathy, and trust. Leaving the door open for possibility and amplify the voices of others, not later on, but in that immediate moment.

And finally, advance. With trust established it's time to act and collectively dismantle systemic inequities. Talking isn't enough. Posting Black squares isn't enough. Donating money isn't enough. To advance all women across organizations and beyond, we must address issues that have plagued our society for centuries. In other words, it's time to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And this includes me.

Listeners, I've got to be honest with you. At times this was an uncomfortable conversation and I'm really uncomfortable with you hearing my discomfort but this is the work and this is my action, my risk because I believe an equitable world is possible. But first I have to dig.

I am a white woman. A white woman whose ancestors own slaves, a white woman whose privilege can be traced back to the 11th President of the United States. I step into this conversation willingly in hopes others will follow. Here we go.

Dr. Beth and Dr. Tina, thank you so much for being here, for giving such gracious time when I know that you are so busy. I'm thrilled to speak with you. I'm honored that you've taken this time, and I can't wait to delve in to all of these questions.

Dr. Tina Opie:

Mary Knox, thank you so much.

Dr. Beth Livingston:

Yes, we are excited to be here.

Miller:

Wonderful. So you have an interesting partnership amongst the two of you. Not only are you each academics in your own right, each steeped in research, each steeped in lived experience, you are also collaborators. Now, I want to know, we'll get to the book in just a second for Shared Sisterhood, but tell me first, where did this fire in your belly come from to study gender and diversity in the workplace?

Livingston:

So I can't remember a time where I didn't care about these things and I think back, when did I first start really caring? And not just caring, but feeling that drive to solve something that is wrong, to write something that is wrong. And I think the first time I really remember it is when I was in high school, college age, young kind of teenager age, when I think you have a very strong sense of justice in a lot of ways, you look around and you see things that aren't right and you say, this is impossible for this to be this way, why isn't it?

And sometimes you don't have the mental sort of capacity to understand all the reasons behind it, and you develop and you learn. And I think there are many different reactions to that realization of injustice and unfairness. I think some people just choose not to pay attention. It's too hard to even think about it, and it's easier to focus on yourself and your own concerns.

And some people throw themselves into trying to find solutions. And I was always an intellectual child. I was always a reader. And I think I threw myself into reading a lot. Surely this is a big enough problem, racism. I'm seeing people being treated differently because of that. I'm seeing myself and my friends being treated differently. I remember very viscerally the first time I felt gender discrimination and was sure that's what it was. I wasn't able to convince myself that, no, maybe it was something else.

Remember that feeling, I was very angry, angry about it, and I threw myself into reading because surely smarter people than me have solved this, right? Surely someone had come up with that solution. I can't have been the first one to feel this way.

And what I realized over all those many decades of reading was that a lot of smart people have thought about it and it's such a complex problem that there are so many opportunities for solutions. And I think that it is that drive to solve the problem and continually hearing from people who are still seeing these same things that I saw 25 years ago that are continually lighting that fire in my belly to continue addressing injustice and trying to figure out ways to solve it all around my own world and the world of the people I care about.

Opie:

And I was raised by hardworking storytellers and readers. And so probably in my mother's womb, I was learning about the African diaspora, the history of... in particular Black people abroad in this country and always a reader.

Reading was where I escaped, would stay in the library all day just reading different books. I used to read the encyclopedia. This is back in the day when the encyclopedia salesman would go door to door and there was that white set of encyclopedias and I would literally just read them. My parents and probably personality wise, very curious. And my parents were willing to let me explore whatever domains seemed to most resonate with me.

I definitely became interested in studying racism before sexism, which is always interesting because of intersectionality as a Black person, the identity that was made the most salient to me was being a Black person, not being a woman.

Now of course, within the Black community, being a woman that has meaning, there are different experiences that you have as a Black woman versus a Black man. But I didn't call myself a feminist for a long time because of the very racist history of the feminist movement. As I got older, I began to say, well, I can lay claim to that term, feminist. I just need to make sure that people take an intersectional approach to feminism.

And so the final thing I'll say is a sense of justice. This is probably not where you thought this conversation was going to go Mary Knox, but I will tell you I was well serious. It's going to make you go, don't feel bad for me. I was sexually molested at a young age, taken advantage of. And ever since then, whenever I feel a sense of injustice or if I see a group being taken advantage of or something, I'm ready to dive in there because I can't stand that suffocating feeling of being overpowered or burdened by someone else. So that's a very personal reason but that definitely keeps me motivated. I don't want anyone else to ever experience that.

Miller:

This is true fire in your belly said. I can hear you speak. This is connecting for both of you through the tissues and the fibers of your being. So it's incredible to hear this passion already coming out of your voice and to be okay embracing that and everything that comes with it. Because of the topic that you're talking about, you're talking about racism and gender inequities in the workplace, and you've spoken publicly about this a little bit before, but you published the book Shared Sisterhood in December of 2022, How to take collective Action for Racial and Gender Equity at Work. Everybody needs to read this book. It is fantastic, who hasn't read it already.

But you don't just talk about sisterhood and equity. You actually embody it. And by embodying it, I feel like the message becomes that much more powerful. And you've talked about the rough start to your collaboration. So you have three main sections of your framework, dig, bridge, and advance. And I want to make sure we leave a lot of time for the advanced part and the action part because that's important. But could you use each step to reflect on the experience that you had in collaborating and how you fostered trust with each other?

Opie:

So Beth and I met at the Academy of Management, which is the largest convening of faculty, business faculty who study management, organizational behavior strategy, any number of those kinds of topics as well as the actual students. I had just given a paper, a research paper, and came off the stage and there was a cue of people. And I met Beth.

Beth sort of skipped up to me, she says, and I didn't know her. I was friendly and I was cordial, but I was not sort of embracing of... I didn't know who she was. And part of what happened when I saw Beth was I saw a white woman approaching me very enthusiastically, and I didn't know if I could trust her because unfortunately, I've worked in different industries, in banking and consulting and entrepreneurship and academia, and each of those domains I've been betrayed and largely at the hands of white women. And so when a white woman approaches me in that way, my guard goes up and it went up with Beth and I let Beth take it over from there.

Livingston:

It went up with me. And I immediately, like Tina said, she was always polite. There was never rudeness, but there was definitely a distance that I sensed as someone who was very extroverted and always trying to connect with people and perhaps a little less delicately in my early years than I think I've developed since then.

But it was in that moment that I think both of us had to decide what we wanted out of this connection. Did we want to connect further? And I think all of us can think of dozens of times we've interacted with people casually like, yeah, I'm good. That's enough interaction with that person. I'm happy to just let it end with that moment. And I think both of us said, well, I think I said I thought first. Well, I'm not content with that being the only interaction we have.

There was something there that I really respected about Tina's perspective. I liked her personality. I heard lots of great things about her. I really wanted to connect at a more authentic level with her. And so then I had to figure out the distance and there were choices that I could make. It could be how dare she not connect with me? What's wrong with her? Why won't she? Or it could be, oh, what am I doing? And I think at that point in time, I had to use the dig framework and look within myself and say, okay, Beth, why might a Black woman in the same profession that I am in be a little wary of you?

And I couldn't take that personally. I couldn't be like, well, she doesn't know me. I couldn't take that personally. I had to actually sit and think and empathize with her perspective. And I knew enough other Black women in academy to know better. And I had to take that moment to think and then I had to persist and I had to say, well, how do I demonstrate my trustworthiness with her and how do I persist in building this connection? And that was the choice that I had to make. So in that moment, I had to both dig, think within myself, but also bridge with her attempt to make overtures to demonstrate that we shared values and to show it, not just say it.

Opie:

I could feel Beth persisting. And so I started to ask questions and I found out that we had a Black woman, academic colleague in common. And in fact, Beth is really close to this mutual colleague, and I really trusted the colleague. And so that caused me to let the wall down a little bit.

And I had to dig, I had to ask myself, okay, has Beth done anything to deem herself untrustworthy? And the answer was no. So why aren't you trusting her? Okay, you're processing Beth not as an individual, but as a proxy for all white women. Girl, that's not fair, Tina, that's not fair. You need to individuate. And so as Beth said, we began to connect. We saw that we had similar values, we also had similar interests. I like to say we both like to dance. We both like '90s hip hop. We're both mothers, we're wives. We're both academics. We're both relatively, somewhat southern, Midwest, you know what I mean?

Livingston:

We're transplanted southerners.

Opie:

Exactly. Some of those things, when we were able to bond on our similarities, that strengthened the foundation of our bridge. We were able to connect and then we were able to begin to discuss our dissimilarities because as we talk about in the book, I'm a Christian, Beth is an atheist, and listen, Black, woman, Christian, and I'm also 10 years older than Beth, so different generations. And then Beth, white, atheist, academic, 10 years younger. We don't always agree on everything. We see things differently. But because we've both done dig and bridge, because we've really focused on trust and risk taking and empathy and vulnerability, and those are sort of the four cornerstone attributes of authentic interpersonal connection when you're bridging with someone.

Because we've done that, we are able to challenge each other, center the value of equity and continue to move on and develop our relationship such that we were able to collaborate on writing Shared Sisterhood. That's the advance or the collective action that we have taken. I think that would be sort of at the highest level of collective advance that we've taken. So that's a quick sort of run through I think from both Beth and I, our perspectives of dig, bridge, and collective action apply to our relationship.

Livingston:

And I want to just really quickly note something about... just as an important clarification. When Tina says that I persisted in trying to establish a relationship with her, I didn't battle at her. I wasn't like, "Hey, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me." There's a difference. I wasn't persistent like, "Hey, what's up? What's up? What's up?" I had to dig first in order to find the best way to be persistent that wouldn't undermine my sense of trustworthiness. That wouldn't backfire, right? And I think that's an important distinction.

I was persistent, but I didn't badger. I was persistent with an undercurrent of vulnerability and trust and empathy. And I think sometimes there's a miss there. Well, if I try hard enough and I'm always there and always there, but then you're getting a little stalkerish and weird. So there has to be that underpinning of empathy and vulnerability too.

Opie:

[inaudible 00:16:41] definitely want to reiterate that Beth had the right touch.

Miller:

I want to keep going on this thread because not a lot of folks can speak from experience, embody their message, and then also try to encourage people to do the same in terms of trust, empathy, vulnerability. Why is that so hard? Why are we struggling so much to just let down the shield or let down whatever this armor is that we have, if that's going to be the biggest key to creating these bridges?

Opie:

Well, Mary Knox, I first want to talk about the armor. And in the case of Black women and white women, we may be wearing armor for different reasons. So I'll start with me.

So as a Black woman, I talk about this in the book. I had armor on when I met Beth, that armor is protective and sometimes it can help to shift from race to gender. When I'm speaking or when Beth and I are speaking or talking or doing. I asked the audience, which is oftentimes quite a few women, have you ever come home late at night and you dial 9 and 1 on your phone and your finger hovers over the last one. And in the United States, 911 is the number that you dial for emergencies. Have you ever taken a picture of your cab driver or your ride app, ride-sharing driver and texted it to your friends and said, look, if I don't get home in 15 minutes, he did it.

Doesn't that mean that you don't trust all men? Absolutely not. But it does mean that you're aware of the probability, the statistics that the people who are most likely to do harm are men. And this is where sometimes I found white women in particular are reticent to hear. The harm that I've experienced in the workplace, given probability, is most likely going to happen from white women.

And so despite what the media says that Black people, Black women in particular are loud or angry, maybe have violent tendencies, the harm that I've experienced has come from white women. So white women are a threat and they're a threat not just to Black women, but to many other people in the workplace. And so the armor is protective, but and here's where there is dig that has to happen from my perspective, someone who's from a historically marginalized group, that armor prevents sunlight and water and nutrients from getting to me.

And you have to be willing, you make an educated calculation, is this person trustworthy enough for me to let down a little bit of the armor? If I hadn't done that, Beth and I wouldn't have become friends and sisters and then written Shared Sisterhood together. I would've really missed out on a great relationship. And I think it's imperative that we have that conversation about the armor that people from historically marginalized groups may be wearing, but it's different than the armor that people from historically power dominant group might put on and Beth can tell you more about that.

Livingston:

And I think that's a really important distinction. Let's take the example of when Tina and I first met. That feeling, all of us have approached someone or had a conversation with someone where we've just felt the vibes are off. We've just felt the distance, we felt the coldness. And I could have my armor up as well to say, well, how could she not trust me? I didn't do anything. That's not fair. That's not fair.

And I think we often, white women often put that armor of defensiveness, I didn't know anything or I didn't mean anything by that. How can you not see my heart? How can you not know what I intend? Tina didn't know my intentions when I came. How could she know my intention? She didn't know me, she didn't know my heart, she didn't know my mind, she didn't know my values. And so I was asking something of her that we would never ask of anybody else, which is assume everybody has the best intentions and shares all my values of equity at all times. Just saying that out loud sounds how absurd it is.

Opie:

Assume that despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

Livingston:

Yes, a hundred percent. Absolutely. And it's absurd to think that. You can hope they share your values and hope that they have good intentions, but you have to wait for their actions to be [inaudible 00:21:23], you have to wait for their actions to align with that. And I think a lot of white women, myself included, anybody, we have a defensiveness. I think humanity in general, we have a defensiveness. All of us know what our quote-unquote "triggers" are. What is it that turns you into, oh no, uh-huh. I don't like what that is. And I think for many white women, that interaction with Black women, with other women from marginalized groups, anything that reminds us of our relative power triggers that armor to say, but I don't have power, but I'm not like that. But I didn't do that.

You can hear all of these threads that happen because we don't want to be judged by anything other than our actions. But that defensiveness is an action that you will then get judged by. Had I chosen to react that way, Tina would go, oh no, she's not at a place yet where I feel like I can connect with her because she's still centering herself, still centering her own feelings and not empathizing with my own.

And I think that's something that we all us white women or women from whatever dominant group is in your society, we have to think through that. Just because my racial group has relative power in society doesn't mean that I'm a bad person. It doesn't mean that I individually have power over everybody else, but what it does mean is that I have a responsibility to listen a little more, to think a little bit more, to dig a little bit more in order to build those conversations and I think that that defensiveness is the armor that a lot of white women wear.

Miller:

I am just... everything that you're saying, I just feel like I'm having this rush of memory of conversations with my family from the south and communities that I grew up in that is from childhood, but also even as of a year or two years ago, trying to enter into this conversation is not easy. And trying to say, here I am at this table, I want to participate and I still have a lot to learn, for some reason seems to be really difficult. The defacto is always, but that was not me. That was my ancestors. I have family ancestors that owned cotton plantations. I have family ancestors that benefited from all kinds of things, including the slave trade.

Opie:

So you have family members, Mary Knox, who were enslavers?

Miller:

Yes.

Opie:

Yeah. And that's probably very hard. Can you share some of the pushback that your family members give when you try to enter into this conversation? Because I think... and be as specific as possible because it would be great if your listeners could hear that and maybe take notes and see where they may fall. And sorry, I know I sort of flipped the script, but-

Livingston:

[inaudible 00:24:19].

Miller:

[inaudible 00:24:19] but I'm interviewing you all, not [inaudible 00:24:19].

Opie:

I know, but it's not often that you have someone like yourself who proactively reached out to Beth and I because we talk about Shared Sisterhood, and then you just share that your family enslaved people who were like me, people of African descent, and you're from the south and you're still trying to have the conversation. So Mary, that's a unique setup and I can't just let that roll. If you want to... because I think it's so... I'm so curious to hear, [inaudible 00:24:56] made you hot, you're taking off your scarf.

Miller:

Yeah, I took off my scarf. Let's do this. Yes. So my name is Mary Knox. Knox is no coincidence. I am a descendant of James Knox Polk, the 11th President. I have family and ancestry going back all kinds of different in the webs of all the great, but also not so great parts of our country's history. I was very much raised in an environment where, but this is just how things were done. I specifically now ask questions like, "Well, why didn't you stand up for something different? Why didn't you say no, that's not the right thing to do." "Oh, well, that's just how things were done back then." We don't really need to talk about that because that wasn't me. That was people who came before me. And it always comes from, I believe, an earnest place.

I also was raised in a family where in the summers, and this is on my website, so this is public. I was raised in a place with my grandmother in the summers, and she had a Black woman who was there to help with the cooking, with the cleaning and the child minding. And she was this most amazing, beautiful woman named Margaret. And she slept downstairs. We all slept upstairs, and it was never explained and never talked about, but we always understood and recognized that there was a difference.

And I always, as a child... man, you really are interviewing me. I always, as a child, just felt in the south this deep, what I now realize was discomfort, and this energy that I felt like I don't understand. I just wanted to shake somebody and say, but why are you saying that about them? They're a human being. We literally are made of the same things. We just look different. Why are you judging them? Why are you? And that's everything from race to gender to sexuality to all kinds of things. I'll stop there because I could go on for a long time.

Opie:

Mary Knox, first of all, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that. And I think if more white people would make themselves vulnerable in that way and would even take risks in terms of some of the behaviors, maybe with their family, challenging them, I think there would be much more trust from Black people in particular.

But if we're going to talk about just bridging with people who are different than you, whoever is in the historically power dominant group, when they make themselves vulnerable, when they take risks on behalf of the historically marginalized group, that is where we're taking steps towards equity and authentic interpersonal connection. So I really appreciate that, that you shared that. And I didn't know you were a descendant of the 11th President, so now of course I need to go look him up.

Miller:

It's not a great story. I mean it is, he was also very much known for the extension of what was the United States and the taking of lands and...

Opie:

The trail of tears?

Miller:

That was before him that he did inherit land in Mississippi because of that through Andrew Jackson, who was very close to him, kind of a mentor.

Opie:

Wow.

Miller:

So you can imagine it's been a couple rough years, decades.

Livingston:

But I want to say something about that because I think it's really important. Tina mentioned the importance of recognize the vulnerability in this. We often look at our history as a source of pride. Who is our lineage? Who did we come from? It becomes something of the ingredients that made us who we are.

And so when we look back at our family history, and I remember... my family is very German, and I remember the first time I was like, oh God, now I have to look and see. I remember the relief I found when I was like, nope. Okay, on the right side of that, okay, good to see. But many of us find that we are not on the right side of those things of history, and I think it's important that we're honest about that because we have a tendency to... the word whitewash is really important, to whitewash the past and to make it seem like, well, everybody in my past always made the right decisions. Everybody did the right thing. How can we blame them? Because they're human?

Because we're all human and because what happened in the past, those are separate people from us and we can make different choices. But what if we don't acknowledge the wrongness of the choices they made? Then we are not being honest with ourselves. And how can we then be trustworthy if we can't even admit yes, the fact that my family wealth came from enslaving other human beings is wrong. If we can't say that, how can we be trustworthy when we're trying to connect with people? That's that armor, that defensiveness that, well, am I supposed to feel guilty? No, you're supposed to feel like the awful tragedy, bad that the human tragedy existed, and you're supposed to then say, well, then I even have a greater responsibility to do right from here on out. But that doesn't mean that you crawl in a hole and say, "I'm a horrible person." You're still you, and you get to make your own choices. But if you can't acknowledge the wrongness of that, then I wonder what other sort of wrongness you can't acknowledge, I suppose, is what I think.

Miller:

The older I get, the more I realize you have to accept dualities that yes, I can be proud of my southern heritage. I can be proud of the things that made me who I am, and I also come from a really long line of very strong women. At the same time, I can also hold that it wasn't right what we did, that it wasn't right of what our ancestors did. And I have to be able to hold both of those things at the same time and acknowledge both of them because otherwise, we just keep going because that was then and this is now, and we can move on.

Livingston:

And you don't want to repeat it, right?

Miller:

Right.

Opie:

The challenge that I have, because I think this is another reason why we may not have some of these conversations, is that enslavement happened in the past, but the vestiges of enslavement continue and so many people deny that.

And I'm sure Mary Knox, when your family or other families like yours, you might be like, are people going to expect me to give up my money? Am I going to have to give this land away? What does this all mean? What are we talking about reparations? So I think it gets very personal very quickly, and it becomes a [inaudible 00:31:51] game in some instances. Fear begins to rise to the surface, and then when we know people are fearful, that defensiveness comes up. And I would actually say that that's a lot. When I look at the news and I watch many different news channels because I'm trying to see what different people think. Fear is a huge motivating factor, and it masquerades as bombastic courage or bravery.

Livingston:

Oh, I love that.

Opie:

They're like, this is the way-

Livingston:

Fear masquerades as courage.

Opie:

It is. It's like this is what's right. This is why we need to make sure. I was in Texas, in Dallas when Abbott signed SB 17, you have to be fearful if you are dismantling DEI offices, banning mandatory diversity statements, and banning DEI training. When diversity, equity and inclusion are about the kinds of conversations that we're having here, they're enriching conversations.

But there is a sense... you notice I didn't say master, I said enslaver. I don't say slave, I say enslaved person because we need to show that there was agency. There was agency. And even though people say that's just the way that things were done, even then people were saying, this is inhumane. This is wrong. This should not be happening. You need to liberate enslaved people. It's sometimes difficult because people like to make it about history, but it's very much contemporary events. And to me, there's a bright red through line to some of the things that we're experiencing today, which is why we wrote Shared Sisterhood, honestly.

Livingston:

Yeah, because there's still so many things that we have left to solve, but it's something that I think there is a fear for a lot of white people in particular here in the United States, to reckon with the truth of the history. It's why there's so many people who are bent on hiding the history, removing the books, removing the education, because they're afraid. If people look at that history, maybe they'll look back at the past with less pride and more frustration, more sadness, more anger, and then change things because those vestiges of inequality and slavery still exist.

There's a reason it's called affirmative, it takes an affirmative action. We have to make a proactive choice to change those things, they aren't just going to... if we all were to now all of a sudden all be lovey-dovey and happy and wonderful at the second, these things wouldn't all go away because those systems have been built over so long we have to affirmatively attack them in the name of equity.

And I think there's a lot of fear that people will be exposed in ways that are embarrassing. And I hope that people start to, particularly white people, but men, straight people, people who are in positions of relative power just by basis of how they were born, can start to take ownership of the fact that so long as you are growing and changing, so long as you are moving towards being a more equitable person, you are growing, you shouldn't use the excuse of, well, I was once wrong to not change. If you were once wrong, try to be less wrong, I suppose is what I, and I think a lot of people do use that excuse to say, well, then I have to admit I was wrong. Then what if people think I'm a hypocrite because I've changed? What if people have accused me of flip-flopping? Well, then you've changed for the right reasons. So it's good to grow and it's good to learn. And maybe that's the academic in me.

Miller:

It also takes a lot more energy though to live in your values, to continuously applaud them and to stand by them because it's a heck of a lot easier to just go with the flow and just go with the current. I also think that there's something in there about... if we're also proud of where we come from and we are told as a child, this is right and this is wrong, to then question all of that. It's very disorienting. I've had to go through a lot of, well, this is what I was told. Was this right or was this not right? It seems like a little simple thing, but it's actually a really big thing to all of a sudden question a lot of what you thought was truth.

Opie:

Well, as a Christian, there are some things that the way that Christianity has been applied, I've said many times, Christians have done some of the most harm to people around the globe than any other group. And so, because I'm still a faithful Christian I have to confront that because maybe there are some things in the way that they've been applied. I'm like, I don't know if that is the... would Jesus like that? I don't know. I think it's critical that we question. That's what I tell my children, and I tell students and organizational leaders that we work with and myself, evolution requires energy.

If you want [inaudible 00:37:08], stagnation does not. So if you want to evolve, if you want to become more educated, if you want to become more empathetic, any positive thing, you're going to have to take energy to do that. And it is disorienting, it's uncomfortable, which is why we tell people, get comfortable being in that state more frequently. It's a muscle. You have to develop it. And I just feel like good grief, so many people want to be comfortable chilling, sipping lattes on the beach. And meanwhile, I'm like, people are dying. People are not getting promoted. You could be a little uncomfortable. My goodness. Anyway, I don't want to start preaching.

Livingston:

It's so funny to me, what we put our energy into and what we're willing to suffer from and what we're not. And I think that's something that I think is always very telling. Oh, I'll go to the gym and I'll run 10 miles and oh, it's super uncomfortable. I don't believe you if you say you like it, I [inaudible 00:38:13] with weights, I know how bad it hurts. I get it. But I'm like, but you won't stretch yourself and try to... there's places where you choose to stretch and you choose to hurt, and you choose to... There's times where you choose to do that. And that choice, that agency is important and it's telling. And oftentimes that's preventing you from being able to, well, why can't I have these authentic connections with people? Because I see you. I see what you're choosing not to engage with, and it's exhausting, and I'm just not going to put my energy there.

And I think that's why the dig portion of Shared Sisterhood is so important, and you should always return to it. It's like the place you always come home to, right? The first place you start is, okay, let's look within myself. The way I sit in this world of power structures and history and current, how is that affecting how I'm seeing the situation? And am I wrong? What happens if I'm wrong? And acknowledging that you could be is so super important for building those connections.

Because if I would have approached Tina and been like, well, she's wrong about me, and kept that up and not said, well, why might she be acting this way? If I wouldn't have done that work, we would never be here. We would never have got to this point. And not just the outputs of what we've built together, which are important for bringing people together, but the relationship in and of itself is valuable to me as a person and that's what so many people miss out on. We talk about action, and it's super important. We want to move the world towards equity, but the relationships are an end of themselves, and you miss out on so much when you're not building those.

Opie:

The final thing I want to say about that is, and I know I may make your family in particular blow up Mary Knox if they listen to this, but I am going to... So Abbott, DeSantis 45, a lot of people who are making these very declarative, competent points, and help me think of people on the more liberal side who are maybe just as bombastic. It's hard for me to do that because I don't think this is... it's the same on both sides. I don't think it's a both sides issue. I really don't. When people are that declarative and confident, I always get nervous.

Whenever I find myself, because I'm a Christian, I say, I do believe in the Bible, but I could be wrong. I could be wrong, I could die and there's nothing, there might not be Jesus. And I know some people might say that's sacrilegious, but that is the honest to goodness truth. I have faith that what I believe in, faith is the evidence of things not seen, which means you don't know because you haven't seen it. You may have experienced different things, but you don't know. I'm choosing to believe that. They're choosing to believe a particular thing as well and so when you have a hundred percent confidence, your choice is accurate, your choice is what is true gospel, there's a problem.

Miller:

Absolutely. Again, the older I get, the more I've gone through, not just about experiences here in this arena, but also others, the more I'm learning, I don't know very much. Right, the older you get, the more you learn. You realize actually you don't know anything at all. And so I think having that humility and that honesty and leaving the door open to, yes, I believe in this, but maybe there's another way. That's that duality, right? It's holding both things that potentially can be true at the same time.

So I've got to go to this question, which is an underlying theme of this podcast, and really ultimately my mission and my driving force of trying to answer this really simple question, why can't we see each other as equals? Why can't human beings when we are literally all made of the same thing? Why is it so difficult for us to see one another as equals? And I would love for each of you, maybe Beth, we can start with you. How would you answer that question?

Livingston:

Oh, wow. I feel like I could take this, the fundamental psychology way. Here's all the psychological components. I could take it the sociology way. Here's those sociological factors that lead to us not seeing each other the way we are.

But when I think about it, and if you want me to say one thing, I really think it's fear. I think it is the same phenomenon that we've talked about on this podcast, which is, what if everything that I have believed is wrong? What if every way I was raised is wrong? What if my parents who loved me, who whatever, what if they were wrong in the way that we treated other people? What if my worldview is built on a foundation of sand. And there is a fear there that I think prevents us from asking ourselves difficult questions, prevents us from making ourselves vulnerable even to ourselves.

We're not willing to be vulnerable even to ourselves. I think that fear often keeps us stagnant in our way to growth. There are lots of other factors I think that factor in there. But when I deal with people who tell me they care, who will use the words and say, I value equity. I care about people. I'm not racist, I'm not sexist. And they use those words and then I look at their actions and I say, why don't you treat people then as equals? Why aren't you seeing the full humanity of the people around you? The variable I often see there is fear. Now there are a bunch of other people who are not even trying to see people as equals. They're like, no, I don't believe in that. And that's a whole different, I think, motivation. But those people that I'm talking about, I think fear is a huge motivator.

Opie:

I would say the first thing is because we don't know each other, we don't individuate, we don't connect. We know stereotypes. We know prototypes, we know media narratives, but we don't actually know each other.

And you see that our social networks are relatively racially homogenous. We live in segregated neighborhoods. We go to segregated schools, unsegregated churches. We watch different news channels. We read different magazines and newspapers. We believe different presidents are in power, so we don't really know each other. So it's very difficult to see someone as equal, equal in the sense that we all deserve dignity and respect from God, but we have different talents and abilities.

And this goes to the second point, regardless of the government or economic structure. So whether it's capitalists, socialists, communists, and whatever, inevitably human beings categorize people, they categorize things and we're selfish.

That's the third thing. We're selfish. So we are going to categorize people in such a way that privileges us typically. So if you do that, then all of a sudden, okay, well this person is a gifted singer, but this person's good with numbers. Well, what thing do I value most? That's the thing that's going to be prioritized and given privilege. And if there are people who have that skillset, that's who I want to be close to me to have the same kind of benefits and advantages that I do. So we don't know each other. I think that we are very greedy and fearful individuals, and I think we categorize each other. I think that's how the brain works in terms of heuristics. But I think we impute value based on those categories, and we don't challenge it.

And I think unfortunately, we are the beneficiaries. We've inherited systems that have placed values on certain people and devalued other people for so long that it feels natural. It feels natural to look at someone who has an accent or speaks with broken English as less than, for so many people, that they don't see that full human being. Instead, they're like, oh gosh, they're not educated. What does that really even mean? That's why I think we don't see each other as equal.

Miller:

Thank you both of you for those answers. That was incredible. I've heard things that no one else has said, and I'm just thrilled and delighted to be in this conversation with you and honored. Thank you.

Opie:

Thank you, Mary Knox.

Miller:

So we're going to transition into a quick lightning round of questions followed by a deep dive into communication tools and tactics that have really moved the needle for you guys. So let's start with who is someone, past or present, from any discipline who is inspiring you right now?

Opie:

The first thing that came to mind is Jesus, but that's problematic. Ida B. Wells. Cialdini, I've been starting to read his persuasion and influence books lately because of the entrepreneurship thing, Mary Knox. I'll stop there.

Livingston:

Timnit Gebru and Margaret Mitchell have been inspiring me lately. They've always inspired me, I think but we've had so much conversation about artificial intelligence right now, and they are not letting down their fight to lead the conversation on this issue and I think that's really important. And I am always inspired actually by Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union right now. They've put themselves out there, I think they have really important conversations about their family and about justice and fairness, and I respected Dwyane Wade for his basketball and Gabrielle Union for her acting, and now I respect them even more as parents and people.

Miller:

What is your go-to activity to relax and not think?

Opie:

Laugh. I watch funny videos and I'm sort of... I'm terrible. So the secret is I laugh at myself when I trip and fall, but I like to watch videos of people doing things like walking into glass doors, slipping on ice. The sound is just so... laughing, especially with my husband. And then also long baths with my laptop, perched on the counter, just chilling, watching movies.

Livingston:

I like to read Regency Romance novels to completely discontent and Jane Austen fan fiction. I read a lot of real in depth fantasy too, but that takes a lot of thinking. And so I like to... if I'm like... can't my brain know, I just read a lot of trashy romance.

Opie:

And dance and dance probably.

Livingston:

I do. I do. I dance. I like to throw on a good music and dance in my living room, but right now it's summer and my children are home, so I can't do that as much.

Miller:

Ditto, ditto. That's awesome. All right, last question. What do you wish someone had told you before you became a public figure?

Opie:

That it's not always necessary to refute the attacks, because the more public you become, the more people notice you, and typically the more... you get a lot of people applauding and saying, that's great, but you also get more people saying, she should be doing more of this, or she's not doing this, or I questioned that, and I think because I do like to connect with people, at one point I felt like if I could just talk to them, they would see who I really am, and then... Girl, please, I don't have time for that because it's a distraction. Now, if there are some things that are valid, then that's something that I will probably go to someone in my inner circle. I'll call Beth and say, okay, was I crazy about this? And she'll be like, you can't send that email.

Livingston:

We all need that person in our life to tell us not to send the email.

Opie:

You can't refute all the attacks, but also don't necessarily believe the hype either because this life is... there's phases. You're going to have highs and you're going to have lows. And if you're constantly in your comments, I think it's a bad thing.

Livingston:

And I would say, the things I would tell myself before I started to have some sort of a public profile would be make sure if you're doing it for yourself and not to prove other people wrong or not to prove to other people that you can. And I think finding my own internal intrinsic motivation for why I do what I do and why I talk about what I talk about and who I collaborate with and the things I talk about and say that it has to come from me and what I really care about. It can't be in reaction to what other people think I should do or other people think I can't do, and so I need to prove them wrong then obviously, and that was a true moment of evolution for me, was to, are you doing this for you? Are you doing this because they said you can't, or are you doing this because they said you should.

And so centering my own values and my own abilities, and that has been really important because you can't do everything nor should you. And a lot of people, I think, who become public figures decide, well, now I'm a public figure who's an expert on everything. No. I know my lane and I stay in my lane. Doesn't mean I don't think and have conversations about lots of things, but if I'm going to say something publicly and put my reputation behind it, it's something that I've thought a lot about and I feel like I can add.

Miller:

Yeah, so that intention and also making sure it's coming from you and not your reaction to something else that's out there. Beautiful.

All right. Dr. Tina, you posted this on LinkedIn not too long ago, but it just took my breath away and I immediately messaged you. You said entrepreneurship is all fun and games when you're signing contracts, making keynotes and autographing books, but entrepreneurship is not always fun. It can be a lonely, even scary endeavor. This week has been tough for me. I looked at my to-do list, my inbound inquiries and my outbound expenses and asked Tina, are you stupid? Keep your stable career. Stop doing this risky venture stuff.

What has this journey been like for you? Are you glad that you took the step from academia into entrepreneurship? Is it flexing muscles in ways that you didn't prior to? Is it scratching an itch that you had? Why are you doing this?

Opie:

I'm very happy that I've done this. I have felt for a long time... from a young age that I was built to do entrepreneurship or something different, that a traditional role has never... whether that be how I'm a daughter, how I'm a wife, how I mother, how I'm an employee, I have never been okay with a traditional box. And in fact, I probably resist it. It feels constraining to me.

And so I love the feeling of presenting myself fully because I think the people who I'm working with in entrepreneurship are seeing a different version of me than maybe I've ever presented in a past because it is hard. When you get a six figure IRS bill, when you have a whole accounting and bookkeeping team and yet you still get hit with that.

When you're in DEI and then that space begins to shrivel up because inevitably the pendulum swings after the summer of racial reckoning. And I ask myself frequently, girl, are you stupid? Because you could be making an amazing salary and having a stable income, but that path does not lure me. It does not call me. I'll do it. I've done it but I think I've been ruined for being a full-time anybody's employee because I've tasted too much. I've seen too much. I want to use my energy and effort in different ways.

I am truly entrepreneurial. I am not a nine to five kind of person, and people keep trying to beat me into being that, it does not work for me. Inevitably, I'm up at two o'clock in the morning working, figuring out another program or service or another class or something. I'm like, hey, what about this? I can't help it, Mary Knox. It feels like that is a gifting that has been given to me. There's a restlessness there and there's an energy, and I think I have something to say and to give to the public that is not necessarily manifested in working for someone else nine to five.

Livingston:

I have always enjoyed speaking and always enjoyed the autonomy that comes with a lot of academia. And I think I completely identify, and what Tina says resonates with the stifling nature that being an employee can be, particularly when you have big old dreams and the skills to match that. And so I think Tina's experienced, I think will resonate with a lot of people.

I think for me, this experience has been validating because it shows that the skills that I do have, I've been in places where the skills that I have are not valued. I speak well in public, I can translate my research, I can talk about these sorts of things. I enjoy that. And that isn't always a skill that gets you very far in academia. And I am very pleased, what I've learned is that I'm pleased that I'm in a place that values that. And if ever I wasn't, then the fire in my belly might be different in terms of what I'm looking for.

And also, we're all in different stages in our lives in terms of what we want to do and what we don't. But I have also learned the value... one thing that Tina and I have is we have supplementary skills where we're the same in a lot of ways, and we have complimentary skills that she's very good at and we do that a lot. We do a lot of passing things off via text message like, you're going to take this one Tina [inaudible 00:56:52]. And I have learned so much from her in terms of negotiation, in terms of knowing my own worth, knowing my own value, and interacting with people. And so I think that's one of those beautiful things about shared sisterhood is when you find these authentic connections, you learn from each other and you feel confident saying, yes, you are better than I am at this. And that doesn't make me less than, it just makes me proud to have you as my partner and friend.

Opie:

Because I learned a lot from Beth as well. Yeah, for sure.

Livingston:

Mutual learning.

Miller:

The two of you are phenomenal. It's been incredible to watch you interact with one another, to build off of each other's ideas, to express sincerity and vulnerability in this conversation. I am completely honored by this space that you have given us in the time that you've given us. So thank you so much, and I can't wait to see what great things come for both of you.

Opie:

Thank you so much, Mary Knox.

Livingston:

Thank you, Mary Knox.

Opie:

We appreciate it.

Miller:

Throughout this season, my intention has remained simple. Have conversations that open our hearts and minds, so we may better connect as human beings and along the way discover different communication tools and techniques so we can show up in ways that play to our strengths.

I'm grateful to Dr. Tina and Dr. Beth for leading us in this part of our journey. And I hope we've inspired you to do your own digging and bridging so that we can all advance our world together. Thank you for listening.

Speaking Human First is a production of Thought Leader Media, a visual communications agency helping leaders increase their influence by connecting deeper with their audience. It's produced by the amazing team at Yellow House Media and is recorded on the ancestral lands of the Nipmuc Nation. Many indigenous peoples continue to thrive in this place, alive and strong.